Hello.
It's just like Hollywood here.
The anonymous viewer is back there, yeah?
I mean if you're...
Let's say you're standing in front of a group of people.
Then it's best to reach them all at the same time.
That's best.
You have an idea of what's going on inside of people.
Some people are very good at that. They have this special talent.
For example, they walk into a room
and can instantly sense the inner questions of everyone present.
I mean it's...
There's been a lot of that.
That's it!
Beuys speaking.
Good morning, Mr. Beuys. Good morning.
Our colleague from Midday Journal
to Professor Joseph Beuys.
Mr. Beuys, how popular would you say you are?
How should I know? What do you want me to say?
Do you wank me to say "Force 12" or something?
Why not express it in wind force?
All right, so I'd say I've reached the end of the scale,
about hurricane force.
And as you know, storm comes before hurricane.
Mr. Beuys, thank you very much
and I wish you continuing success.
It was meant to be an event and that's what it is.
A German event for New York. Beuys is here and everybody knows it.
Joseph Beuys is exhibiting his art at the Guggenheim Museum
and New York's press is doing all it can to help explain it.
...that make fun of this whole idea of your being an artist.
If we could realize these objectives...
Hanging, lying and standing on a 432-meter continuous ramp
is almost his entire output of graphic art and sculpture.
Waiting upstairs are the felt-covered piano from 1966,
as well as the "Fat Chair" and the "Honey Pump."
"Forget the conventional idea of art.
Anyone can be an artist.
Anything can be art, especially anything that conserves energy."
This is the shortcut formula for art.
Where Beuys is concerned, the basic philosophy
is this attempt to demonstrate how far you can push sculpture
as a means of communication.
Not as sculpture itself, but as a vehicle for all these different themes.
Well, it was an extraordinary feeling
to meet someone of a different generation, a different nationality,
a different background completely
who felt so completely on the same wavelength.
Just very, very extraordinary empathy...
in language and ideas.
It was wonderful to be working with someone
whose range of reference was so wide, you know.
And he was at the top of what he wanted to do.
He was riding the world.
He was getting out beyond the reach of the fatal.
The magazine Capital named him Number 1
in the international art business,
ousting Warhol and Rauschenberg from the top positions.
When did they let him out of the hospital? Do you know when?
It's like the remnants of a construction site. I was disappointed.
It was fascinating.
The felt piano was more accessible than other objects.
For me, it's a new way of thinking about art.
...- but it stays the same? - Right. You empty it.
You drink the contents and throw away the cap. That's what's left.
But you're aware that you're moving away from the traditional concept of art?
Yes, of course... And you really don't care that people say,
"What Beuys is doing has nothing to do with art."
Or do you...? Of course I don't care.
Art, yes, but in a totally different sense.
The concept of what art is has expanded to such a degree
that, for me, there's nothing left of it.
But within a comprehensive system
it's possible that a traditional concept of art
might be able to keep its place,
in a hermetically sealed form.
It would circle around like an atom,
somewhere inside this system.
But the concept of art has been expanded so far
that every normal situation is art.
Every situation or action...? Yes.
It's no longer an object that you hang on a wall...
Now if one takes this position of an expanded concept of art,
which is exactly my position anyway,
most people will regard it as esoteric,
insane, remote,
marginal, peripheral...
And so on and so forth.
That's obvious.
Mr. Beuys...
At last year's art fair in Cologne,
you exhibited a work that consisted of a Volkswagen bus...
out of which are coming a large number...
Maybe 20, correct me if I'm wrong...
40! ...40 small sleds,
all of them exactly the same,
and I found it amusing.
That isn't what I wanted to say... But that's good!
No! But that's great! Why not?
But... Do you want to stamp out laughter and fun,
to have a revolution without laughter?
- I have a specific question... - I want to get my money's worth out of this revolution!
I believe you.
Is that...? And I want others to get their money's worth!
I believe you. But I want to ask you...
Why didn't you use baby buggies?
Why not?
Because I chose the subject.
You should do something with baby buggies!
And see if you can make something that interests people!
Max Bill...
I agree with Mr. Beuys that we're here to think.
But it's not necessary to think until daybreak.
So...
If we take what Picasso said,
"The purpose of art is not to decorate our apartments,
it's a weapon against the enemy."
Who is the enemy?
Professor Gehlen, you said the boundaries of art had expanded enormously
and that you no longer feel provoked by art.
Do you feel challenged by his works,
or do you see his art, or anti-art,
as a stimulating element? Or...
What's my work got to do with anything?
It's irrelevant. We're talking about a theory.
We're talking about something far beyond my work.
Let's throw my work out of the window!
And your work as well! Maybe...
- What is it you want? - I want to expand people's consciousness,
especially regarding the current political situation.
Okay... I don't believe we live in a democracy.
I don't believe we're taught to be free human beings
due to our party-political bureaucracy.
- I'm willing to provoke right now! - Me, too!
First of all, I want to return to the original topic.
If you want to expand or change people's consciousness,
- you must know in which direction.
That's why I'm prepared to talk until daybreak.
No, tell us now! Aha, in one sentence.
Now!
People don't understand you?
I always say that people understand me very well.
But they're afraid of it? No.
But... But then we need to...
It's not a bad thing if people get aggressive.
Let them be aggressive.
At least that gets you talking to them.
You have to provoke it.
Provocation always causes something to come alive.
Maybe they smash their china at home.
Or maybe they call me up on the phone.
It always happens after I've been on TV, "Idiot!"
They call you at home? Sure, whenever I've been on TV.
"Asshole!"
Yes... Just a second...
For many people, art means the freedom of randomness,
"Ah, art. I can do whatever I want."
But what's the point of art if nothing comes of it?
So whenever people ask me if I'm an artist,
I say, "Oh, cut the crap."
I'm not here to decorate these foul, moldering, stinking systems.
I'm not an artist at all.
Except if we say that everyone is an artist.
I buy into that, but only then.
I never said everyone is a poet, a painter, a sculptor.
I mean social art when I say everyone is an artist.
I find what you're saying to be terribly abstract and intellectual...
No.
I'm talking about the emergence of a new art
where everyone not only can participate but must participate.
He was a totally reasonable person,
not at all strange or freakish.
To me he was always totally reasonable.
The opposite of what everyone else said.
"Crazy," "strange," "peculiar."
He was the first sane person I'd ever met. He was totally sane.
And right after our first one-on-one conversation at documenta, I knew,
"You can trust him completely."
I thought that was great.
It had nothing to do with his aura.
I just thought he was someone who was surrounded and courted by people and...
And then he had this incredible, instinctive self-assurance
and this penetrating gaze.
And...
And a really sharp mind.
You need both, otherwise there's no point. You're just a dreamer.
But he wasn't. He was and he wasn't at the same time.
I don't know how anyone can stand that.
He was totally consistent in his words and actions.
FOR THE DOCUMENTA 7,000 OAKS
You're serious?
If I say I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks, then I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks.
I think the project will take at least three years.
Thank you, Mr. Beuys.
- You know this project? - Yeah.
It started--
There is a small detail and illustrates a little bit my understanding of art.
I was invited very often to the documenta.
I was already invited in the '60s.
I participated with a sculpture.
How would you help someone who's dumbfounded by your work
to understand it better?
I would show him the two utensils, a spoon and a fork,
and invite him to eat the object.
Then I was again invited in 1972.
So I told them, "Yes, it's very nice to be invited,
but I will not bring a work of art."
I'll bring the organization for direct democracy.
During the 100 days of the documenta,
you're spending 10 hours a day here in your office.
You speak with everyone, you answer every question...
There was an office, just daily, permanently discussions,
and permanently seminars on the necessity to change the system.
But there was no artwork at all.
At the heart of the documenta, several hectoliters of bee honey
pulsate through an extensive system of veins.
"The Honey Pump in the Workplace."
And now, the last documenta, again I was invited.
So I said, "No, I'm not even interested to go into the building.
I'll go completely outside in town.
I will work with the people in Kassel and plant 7,000 oaks."
The 7,000 trees in Kassel each have a rock,
so it's a tree monument.
Every tree has a kind of opposite pole.
The tree keeps growing taller, the rock stays as it is.
I wanted to juxtapose these two things.
So that over the course of time...
the proportions change constantly.
AN IDEA IS TAKING ROOT
SET YOUR ROCK ROLLING
If you take the 7,000 Oaks,
which is one of the most incredible works of the 20th century,
Beuys assumed that all these people who had a commercial interest in him,
who had bought his work or were living from his work
as gallerists, in the buying and selling of it,
that they would contribute massively to this huge project.
Seven thousand oaks, you know, and the stones.
That's a lot of capital and a lot of ongoing costs.
His trips to Japan trying to raise the money for that-- that project,
they were very intense in those times.
He did say about the trip to Japan, you know, they really wanted their money's worth.
Business, take one. "A" mark.
Action!
He did advertisements for whiskey.
He did endless lectures.
Still anything to sign?
Well, I think, uh--
How do you see yourself as a, in one way, critic of the system,
and another way, also like any other person, participant in the system.
'Cause I think it's, uh--
No, it's not my role to criticize. My role is to give examples.
Because most of the artists are not interested to struggle.
Just to come through with another understanding of art,
which is related to everybody's working place,
to everybody's problem.
There is no theory developed within the artists and within the art.
Also not within the art critics.
Leave away the galleries, which are only caring for a kind of transfer.
Let's say market processes and so on.
So I see there is no really organic development of art
in our society.
Until the art and the artists
don't develop another theory,
which is, uh--
which describes the future society
beyond capitalistic and communistic systems...
until then, there is no hope
to discuss in an interesting way
the role of the art and what the structure of the art in society.
Well, I must say, Joseph,
and that will last to the next documenta.
- It may last forever. - Forever.
And when the last stone will disappear from this place,
it says the last of the 7,000 oaks is planted.
7,000 OAKS
I'd like to talk a little more about another one of your inﬂuences,
your biography, your life.
If I understand correctly,
it's more than just a personal affair for you.
What does your personal story have to do with your art?
Is your art as autobiographical as is sometimes claimed?
You're originally from Kleve. Yeah.
You're the son of a civil servant
who went on to own a fertilizer business, I believe.
So you weren't really predestined to be an artist,
especially not with your family background.
That's right, I wasn't.
My parents would've preferred me to work in the margarine factory in Kleve.
Why did they want you to work in the margarine factory?
Because it was the easiest way to get a good job,
because it was on a par with being a civil servant.
My parents wanted me to go there because they thought,
"Whatever will become of him?"
But he did say he felt like a stranger
in his parents' house.
There was something missing there.
He felt no warmth there, not even toward his mother.
Not really...
Theirs was a purely pragmatic relationship...
That's how I imagine it, knowing him.
But what he felt deep down, that was something else.
He said that his parents rather neglected him,
that they left him to his own devices.
But instead of being sad about it,
he was proud of it.
It says a lot about him.
That's normally seen as a ﬂaw,
but for him it was a source of strength,
being left alone, being free, going off into the fields.
Hasn't your appearance also become something of a cliché?
Your famous hat, for example? Yes.
Does the hat have a protective function,
or is it simply a trademark?
It also has a protective function.
So you protect your head with it.
Yes, I protect my head.
You were seriously wounded several times during the war.
And you once... Correct.
...crashed with your plane, in '43. Yes.
And you said,
"It's been drafty up there ever since.
Actually, I've got a screw loose." Correct.
I also said that I was shot into shape.
Do you remember the crash,
or did it happen so quickly that...?
I remember the plane going down.
I said, "Let's get out, let's jump."
So there were other people in the plane? Yes, one other man.
And he died? There was nothing left of him.
Apart from a few pieces of bone, everything was...
Yes, well...
I remember hearing the voices of the Tatars.
I remember them finding me and standing around me.
But then I lost consciousness.
All the things I remember happened when I was only partly conscious,
because I didn't regain consciousness for about 12 days.
When I came to, I was in a German hospital in the Crimea.
I'd like to ask you about that war period
and how it began to manifest itself in works of art.
When I was wounded very heavily, that such tribes found me,
and belabored my body with this kind of fat.
So they took me out of this crash heap
of crashed airplane,
brought me into a felt tent
wrapped me with a kind of fat and tallow as an ointment to keep me warm.
Is that true? True? It's an event during the war.
Do you fantasize?
I mean, one shouldn't mix this thing, because fantasy itself is very positive.
It doesn't matter. It's only his interpretation of it anyway.
You don't fantasize. Was that the answer?
And I think the philosophy of Zeige define Wunde
is at the very core of Beuys's work.
And you can look at it in many different levels.
First of all, the wound of having separated instinct and logic
in our mentality.
We're all wounded by that split, you know?
And he often used the double images.
It shouldn't be literally interpreted.
But, you know, somewhere thinking about that.
And then going back in his own autobiography, the experience of the war.
Not the literal wound.
You recover from a literal wound,
but coming back home to a totally devastated country.
ACADEMY OF ARTS
Beuys was a very slim,
very skinny young man...
with a face that you never forgot.
It was somewhat deformed as a result of one of the crashes.
He'd suffered a broken nose as well as injuries to his skull.
And...
But he was a man with tremendous charisma,
who radiated a tremendous warmth.
KLEVE, FEBRUARY 28,1957
"After not having visited Beuys for a long time, I called on him today.
He was going through another phase
of neither washing nor putting on any clothes.
He's abandoning himself more and more,
as an artist too.
How often he weeps,
says he's going to leave, go somewhere, forever."
It probably had something to do
with the fact that he was undernourished.
And also with his total lack of success.
In any event,
that was the...
That was the time
when he sank into the quagmire of his own inner misery.
"The chief resident spoke about the examination in Essen.
As I understood it, he'd diagnosed Beuys as being incurable."
He stayed there all summer.
He stayed in my room,
and when he was...
When he was depressed, he hardly responded.
And during the worst periods, he hardly ever left his room,
not even for a meal.
And on his better days...
he'd spend the whole day outside with us from morning till evening,
in the meadows or fields.
And then we told him
he should do something again, at all costs.
He said, "I'm finished with art.
I don't want anything more to do with it."
I said, "You can't carry on like this."
And then my mother went up to his room and knocked on the door, "Mr. Beuys?"
But Mr. Beuys didn't want to come out, and she said,
"I want to talk to you, open the door," which he did.
And then she appealed to his conscience.
And she told him
that his gift was also an obligation, a duty
toward the spirit that had given him that gift.
After you graduated from art school,
you withdrew to the countryside for ten years.
Yes, I didn't feel the need
to be part of the contemporary art scene.
When did you decide to start doing performance art?
I think it developed quite organically
from my aim to expand the boundaries of art.
Beuys had to create a basis for himself
in order to overcome this crisis.
He needed a pedestal to stand on,
rather like the Archimedean point,
"Give me a place to stand and I'll move the Earth."
But it was also a spiritual basis...
his theory of "social sculpture."
How he did that, it's something I...
"How is a figure, a form created?"
"Where does the form come from? What is form?"
Yes, that's interesting.
Certainly, when I began...
And I'm referring to my drawings again...
I was actually... How can I put it?
I was feeling my way around.
I was groping about.
Almost as if I was in the dark, you might say.
I had to touch something...
and often had to lay it down...
and examine it myself and see
if what I'd created might be of interest to anyone at all.
But, above all, whether what I'd created interested me.
My choice of materials
doesn't initially come from a painterly impulse,
it comes from the wish to create sculpture.
These materials appeared at a time
when I was trying to break down the term "sculpture" into its components.
And felt appeared as an insulating element
within the three configurations of sculpture:
undetermined, determined and movement.
The simplest thing in the world,
when describing the process of a production,
is called...
"undetermined starting point..."
"momentum" and "form."
FAT CORNER
Fat was the ideal material for showing states of chaotic...
condition...
for showing movement and the principle of form.
The principle of form appears as a "fat corner" in a room.
In the fat, you have an ideal opportunity
to show the components of the sculpture through the performance.
But I'm referring to sculpture not as a static element,
but as a universal one.
I'd like to come back to this idea of rationale.
If you make your "fat corners," for example...
- Yes. - ...then you think about making them beforehand.
They don't appear on their own,
without a rationale, without thought.
The fat doesn't get into the corner on its own.
Correct! All right, that's what you think. But I can't be so impatient.
Maybe you can allow yourself to be.
All I can say is that it's no longer possible
to talk about sculpture in a conventional sense,
as if one knew what it was.
"A sculpture is something that stands there, like a coat rack.
It's spatial, you can put a hat on it..."
I've tried to apply the term to people,
so that the things I find in sculpture I can find in people too.
That's right. You might laugh and think how irrelevant that is.
But I've done it!
And now we come to another concept that plays an important part.
I suggest that the first product of human creativity is thought,
and that because of this, thought itself is sculpture.
Thoughts affect the world.
THOUGHT = SCULPTURE "FREEDOM"
Düsseldorf Academy of Arts.
- A demon is destroying-
Joseph Beuys, professor and sculptor.
He uses the academy to carry his ideas out into society.
Fundamentally, every human being can be creative
if an opportunity is created for him or her to be able to be creative.
That's the question of equal opportunity in education.
Here, a professor is putting his concept of art into action,
a concept that breaks out of the aesthetic realm
and applies to all areas of life.
You have to ask yourself how we've arrived at this sorry state of affairs,
what's causing these ills?
We're forced to use everything at our disposal.
In that sense, it looks like a...
Beuys' class had a high profile
and was very much tailored to Beuys himself.
And I was one of the worst, I was a true disciple of Beuys,
and that's the worst thing that can happen at any art academy,
when, instead of wanting to do their own thing,
the students fall into line with a particular idea.
If that happens at an academy of art...
An is very sensitive in that respect,
because it stinks of ideology from the get-go.
There certainly are people who have a great affinity with my ideas,
but they aren't we work together.
Beuys was with us in the class from morning till evening.
There had never been anything like it at the academy.
When he was talking to someone, critiquing their work, for example,
he always found a new point that had to be worked on.
And you'd be thinking, "Let's go get a coffee, for God's sake,"
but he'd go on and on.
Do you distinguish between Beuys the artist
and Beuys the teacher?
No, not at all.
And that's exactly what's most important to me.
I've said again and again that...
that I see this kind of work
as a product of art.
Friday, April 28, 10:30 a.m.
Joseph Beuys outlines his latest project.
What I'd like to do
is create a kind of cultural center here in Dusseldorf
that can be interesting for the whole world,
as a meeting point.
Then I'd like to create a second tier:
the permanent presentation of artists from all around the world...
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
Chinese artists, Russian artists, Hungarian artists,
American artists, Finnish artists, and so on.
So that we can overcome the problem of the art market
by utilizing the time factor.
But there were some professors there who took offense at Beuys.
Because, with his concept of freedom,
he'd hit a raw nerve
by, without necessarily wanting to, making his colleagues look bad.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
He'd hit a raw nerve by basically saying:
"You're artists, this is about art.
Art is total freedom and self-determination.
And what are you? Civil servants."
I want to draw people's attention to misguided policies,
and I'm no longer interested in causing trouble at the academy.
I want to inform people about the true culprits in our system.
I want to inform and educate people.
That's the idea people often laugh at me for:
"Can sculpture change the world?"
JOSEPH BEUYS & ABRAHAM DAVID CHRISTIAN
DIRECT DEMOCRACY VIA REFERENDA
The documenta was over,
and the new semester began the next day.
All the bigwigs from the government of North Rhine-Westphalia were invited.
And Joseph Beuys stood up in front of them
and made a speech to them in grunts.
I don't think it would've occurred to anyone to laugh.
It was too dangerous.
IS THIS THE CHOP FOR ART PROFESSOR BEUYS?
EIGHT COLLEAGUES MUTINY AGAINST HIM
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
TROUBLE WITH BEUYS
No, no, no, no.
I protested against the situation
that 500 people were demanding an educational place
where they could develop their abilities,
and the state says, "No. We can only take ten.
So make a selection."
And so the professors took the students, heaps of things,
Look, oh, not interested.
Ah.
And I took every student into my class.
Which resulted I had about 400 students in my class.
But that was a big riot.
For the state it was a riot.
Students at the Academy of Arts in Düsseldorf
demonstrate for one of their teachers, Professor Joseph Beuys.
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
How do you judge the general situation at the academy?
It's pretty chaotic.
But we didn't cause this chaos,
it was those in authority in the cultural bureaucracy.
Let's talk about what happened.
Along with 54 applicants who'd been turned down by the academy,
you occupied its offices.
What did you hope to achieve by this?
I wanted to very calmly see to it
that these students, who already attend my class,
should be enrolled.
On October 5, we were informed
that it was Professor Beuys' intention,
as of October 10,
to remain in the academy's offices for a prolonged duration.
The letter to Mr. Beuys, which was written by proxy for the undersecretary,
had been agreed on by me,
and in it, it was pointed out to Professor Beuys
that, in spite of our sympathy for his personal style,
we could not accept unlawful acts
and that his status as a state employee was in question.
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
The Minister for Science has dismissed you without prior notice for "trespassing."
Do you think the Minister will revoke your dismissal?
I don't think so. Maybe. I'll leave it open.
He could at least have talked to me,
in my opinion.
Why let something happen
that resulted in huge effort and expense?
The police operation, for example?
Wouldn't it have been more economical to talk to me?
What are your plans now?
You've been officially dismissed. What do you think about that?
How do you feel now? Like Don Quixote, who...?
No, not at all.
Or like...
Professor, what are the main points of your dispute?
The cultural scene has been destroyed to a large extent, again by Mr. Rau.
Due to his interference in the Academy of Arts,
its development, the creation of new ideas,
as well as the appearance of foreign artists here in Dusseldorf
have been ruined. That's a fact.
Is it really so dramatic?
The accumulation of these events
results in a kind of experience that makes you want to leave this city
as quickly as possible.
The question is...
Shall we take a short break?
What conclusions have you drawn from it for your future?
I'm treating myself solely through the character of my work.
I've proposed the theory...
"I Nourish Myself by Wasting Energy."
Yes. Yes, that's my method.
FOR ME THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WEEKENDS
Joseph, do you think you've chosen the right time to come to America
and talk about your ideas on art and politics,
after turning down almost every invitation from America in the last 10 years?
Would you like to smoke a cigar first?
Beuys could embolden you by example.
He had a vision. He wanted something.
We're really into step-by-step plans, as you know.
So let's begin casually with step one. Casually...
He was someone who saw in every person a potential partner
for his ideas, for his ideas.
And he didn't care where someone came from or what they'd done.
He said of himself that his attitude was,
"Give people time and they'll come around."
Because I've now reached the point
where it's clear to me that I won't put on the kind of exhibition in America
that's been the norm in the past...
and that there's a lot of interest here now
in these complex ideas
with a political dimension.
Uh, it's my pleasure to give you Joseph Beuys.
Uh, I've been asked also to say
that Mr. Beuys is willing to stay as long as you're willing to stay.
Mr. Beuys.
To arrive at an understanding of art,
leads immediately to the really practical points of life,
to the people, to the human being.
It is an anthropological dimension of the art.
And now we can slowly begin with such an area
to overcome modern art.
- Yes, that's my confession. - Nobody has to believe.
I learned a huge amount from him,
including how to cope with being insulted and reviled.
...of art that does not transform society.
How to keep trying and trying again, starting afresh.
And, of course, he was attacked by many people
who didn't like the idea of an artist interfering with social issues.
I think now-- Oh, yes. Another question.
But certainly there are some things that it's necessary to do in life
that have nothing to do with art.
Yeah, perhaps in your understanding.
But if--
But if you and I are to communicate effectively,
we must have some common understanding
of what these terms mean. Yeah, sure.
And if it's possible for you to give such an open, textured sense to the term "art,"
then it's no longer possible for me to understand what you're saying.
Yeah, sure, it's possible.
Art is the only revolutionary power,
because it is based on humankind's creativity
and self-determination and self-government.
Through the idea of art, democracy could be one day reality.
- Thank you, Joseph. - Thank you.
We are speaking about the possibility to create a new world.
But the premise is to create a new world, is to cut away every tradition,
traditional views of ideology.
And we have to start with another thing.
So to give a declaration of the whole development from Plato to Marx, let's say,
and to the necessity to go further than Marx,
not only the idea of art is radically changed,
in my point of view,
also the idea of capital and economy
at the same time is radically changed.
- Uh, Mr. B. - Yeah.
The economy that we're dealing with now is an information based economy.
Those who control the technologies of the world, control the world.
How can we even begin to believe that any basic social change is going to take place,
when these realities are in place and are growing stronger?
Since the only problems which people are facing,
this misuse of economy, the power of the money
and the power of the government, the states.
So eliminate the state.
That is the idea of art.
Away with such states and such political parties
and such politicians.
To come up with a new economical system,
another use of money, a new credit system,
which gets ready with basic problems.
Then the art would play the most important role.
Beuys speaking.
So he went up into René Block's art world space,
completely blocked off from it,
insulated in felt.
And the only dialogue he had was with this American animal.
The additional element was this symbol
of the abstract, crystalline thinking
of how we organize our economic power.
The Wall Sheet Journal.
And Beuys himself said that the coyote controlled the timing of everything he did.
The coyote himself was a shaman in the sense that every animal gets to grips with material
and knows how to manipulate its surroundings.
We're not the only ones who have that capacity.
The coyote was the scapegoat,
you know, the embodiment of mischief and all the malice
that the white settlers
attributed to the Native American.
In New York, they would have been thinking of that.
And the fact that he rejected all dialogue with any of them,
the art world, the artists and critics and everything,
and would only talk to a scapegoated symbol
of the ancient culture of the United States,
or pre United States, America.
That was controversial.
It was a rejection of the art world, of New York,
of the States, and of their whole culture.
And it was meant to be.
Beuys speaking...
Joseph Beuys, both venerated and reviled,
is running for parliament.
In 1971, he founded an organization for direct democracy through referenda,
and he's totally serious about his current election campaign.
Serious about, among other things, bringing laughter into parliament.
Would you like to become Chancellor? Pardon?
Would you like to become Chancellor?
Sure.
Sure, why not?
Yeah, that's the way it is...
Tonight we're going to discuss the chances and limits of politicization through art.
If I could determine what is, then I could quickly agree with you.
I don't want to keep determining what is,
I want to get an idea of what might be desirable for people.
You talk about innovation as if no one had ever thought of it before...
You're just insinuating that...
Then let me speak for five minutes.
Joseph Beuys...
You won't commit yourself. That's your unbridled liberalism.
That's no use to political activists.
My desire for freedom. Fine, I'd call it something else.
But let me talk about Beuys' political praxis.
I believe the term "politics," as it's used currently,
is what's preventing genuine change.
Joseph Beuys, you're Germany's most controversial artist.
But you're also a member of the Green Party.
Are you serious about that?
Of course. You have to achieve things via a future-oriented movement.
The conference is open!
I would like to point out
that the process of forming opinions
is incredibly laborious for a young party such as ourselves.
Beuys really didn't need that.
He got himself involved with the formation of a party
and with everything that went along with that.
You wouldn't believe what torture that is.
Especially in the case of a party that isn't a party,
where everything's totally haywire.
no one is being rejected!
You had nature lovers colliding with hard-core Marxists.
Then there were diehard Nazis
who had somehow become acceptable because of their holistic philosophy.
And then there were the left-wingers from Hamburg.
Beuys dove right in.
We'll have to keep working with it, of course.
It won't stop you from continuing to work with the Greens.
No, it won't stop me.
He really believed in that movement,
in the founding of the Green Party, and Beuys said:
"We've witnessed a historic day today."
He was so certain that it was the anti-party party.
A Green Party program?
A program?
Green Party program? Thanks.
How about you?
Maybe he'll give us his autograph.
I think more of you as an artist.
Hold on! What do I get in return?
Will you vote for the Green Party if I draw a picture for you?
Casual elegance reigned at Düsseldorf gallery Denise René last night.
Andy Warhol, pale, shy,
constantly searching for Joseph Beuys, who was nowhere to be seen.
Joseph Beuys, who we're still waiting for, has become such a politician
that he knows how to make a dramatic entrance.
I remember driving back from Brussels with him one time.
And I said... Because we were all very tired,
we'd started out from Brussels at five or six in the morning,
and during the journey back he said,
"I've got to get back, I can't stop for long."
So we took a lovely photo of him at a roadhouse,
on which he wrote, "The Man at the Main Lever."
And I think the man at the main lever.
Beuys speaking.
Good morning, Mr. Beuys in Düsseldorf.
Morning.
Beuys speaking.
Who called?
And during the journey he said,
"I've got so many appointments,
from now on I'll start at four in the morning..."
Four in the morning. "...or at five, or at six."
I thought, "How long can anyone keep that up?"
Beuys speaking.
I don't have time at the moment.
It's wearing me out, but that's necessary.
Why is it necessary?
Sorry? Why is it necessary?
Why've you got to wear yourself out?
Everyone has to wear them selves out.
It'd be bad if they were good and died without wearing themselves out.
Okay. Everything has to be used up anyway.
It doesn't matter what profession you're in,
you have to wear yourself out.
You have to burn yourself down to ashes, otherwise there's no point.
If you're still good, that's bad.
Then it's frustrating, isn't it?
"Everything's still so good!" And then you kick the bucket, that's bad.
From this perspective, not from another.
What are some things you would like to accomplish during your visit here?
But come back to it, because you're very articulate.
You've gotta do it on your own.
I think I have to leave now.
No, if you have a question, a last question, it's okay.
I remember it being very summery...
and those river meadows and the smell of the Rosa rugosa.
I can never smell that without thinking of that.
Because there was a big chance that he would die.
So I went over and he was in the hospital...
on the Rhine.
I think it was more
the intensity with which he wanted to follow his work.
And he knew that you can't, uh--
If you fight and streben against something like that, you do more harm.
So he was being calm.
He actually invited that photograph of him with no hat on.
That was very brave of him to ask for a portrait then.
In which area are you laziest? Sorry?
In which area are you laziest?
Laziest?
Yes, laziest.
Maybe I don't understand your question. I just said...
A time always comes when you're tempted to retire from active life.
When you say, "Maybe it would be better if I went to Australia."
That's not a joke.
Is it?
You mustn't retire.
I'm not going to. I'm not going to retire.
But if at some time I...
It really would be a historical disaster.
That's why I'm not going to retire.
I'm not going to retire at all.
But you're bound to say at some point, "Kiss my ass!
I'm going to wander dreamily around the world."
What would the alternative be?
The alternative would be to carry on in a form where, to a certain extent,
you're well-known.
To stubbornly carry on doing the same thing.
I can see Beuys's loneliness and his incredible sensitivity,
his porousness, his...
That...
That he was always inside his wound, inside his hurt.
And that makes you admire this incredible strength even more,
which he used as an antidote, his courage as well.
Mr. Beuys, I don't want to mention your hat...
Mr. Beuys, you've now...
Mr. Beuys, what is art?
Beuys!
Do you feel comfortable in your role
as an artist who's successful in the institutional art world?
I mean, how do you feel about that? Or--
See, art showed already the impossibility to solve
such very important, basic problems of humankind.
But that is not the end of the art. Now the art begins.
This is my objection.
I think that the sensational character
lends to your remarks a force that's strictly locutionary.
It's kind of empty rhetoric.
Yeah.
But as much I could do it, I gave already the proofs.
There is not only sensation,
but it has to be sensation.
Otherwise, it would be of no interest.
It has to be sensationally...
ONLY 2,272 DAYS UNTIL THE END OF CAPITALISM
- Yes. - Yes.
How to topple capitalism, that's how I'd have to put it.
Yes.
NEXT TIME WE'LL NAME NAMES AND IDEAS
Mr. Beuys, are you a radical? Yes, I am.
A famous radical. Is that possible?
It would be good if radicals became famous and people listened to them.
In '83, the Greens were going full steam
and for the first time they had a real chance
of getting into parliament.
And no one understood why he kept going on about the term "capital."
It was much too lofty, even for the Greens.
And now I want to get to the heart of the matter.
Because whenever a democratic process
dares touch the actual nerve of societal change,
the power relations around money undermine every attempt at democracy.
The power of money must be broken.
Today money is a tradable commodity you can speculate with it.
So in the economic sphere,
money is an entity that shouldn't be a commodity
but because it is a commodity
this character must be brought into line with the whole of democracy.
We went to the conference and didn't think anything of it.
We thought...
Because Beuys had been the top candidate three years before.
And you sensed immediately that the atmosphere was really peculiar.
Who's still interested in you?
Who do you still provoke...? Quiet, please!
Could you be quieter, please?
And some of the delegates really went after him.
"Beuys, go off and play with your fat!"
Or...
"Beuys, you're costing us votes."
Please be quiet in the hall, or we can't hear anything up here.
We quickly figured out that the candidates had already been selected.
It was clear he wasn't one of them.
He was being dropped by his own people.
You don't fail, I mean, the endeavor, the attempt,
trying to do something
is a success in itself.
There isn't an end to all this, you know.
There isn't a state of perfection...
or when it's all finished.
There's no point in me standing up in front of someone,
or in front of lots of people...
without there being a question.
What's the point of just foisting an issue on people?
Because they might not even be interested in it.
I have to speak in a way that I know
that there's something inside of the people,
that there's a question
that I can try to answer, that I can try
to solve together with them.
It's actually a joint task.